Questions :
1. What do you think of this immoral women? Is this character a bad reflection on women in general? Does the scathing description change the way we treat those who commit adultery? 2. How does this proverb describe sex? marriage? What advice does it give about sex and marriage? How is community affected by marriage, and by unfaithfulness in marriage? How can God be recommending fidelity in marriage when so many of the Old Testament men have multiple wives?
3. How can we 'maintain discretion' (vs. 2)? Especially in relationships? How does discretion partner with knowledge?
4. Vs. 21-23 gives a pretty harsh warning. What do you think of these threats?
5. What does this proverb tell us about God even though Yahweh is not mentioned?
A couple of thoughts/ mostly on love, sex, and marriage/ as old heavs snores next to me in bed:
Disclaimer: The adulteress described in this proverb is NOT meant to project a negative view of all women but instead symbolizes the falsehood that either man or woman can represent.
- I love this proverb's view of sex. It describes the best parts of sex being fully enjoyed in the marriage relationship. This is not a message that is heard very often around us. We are told that marriage is only as good as its sexual component, that the magic of desire is irresistible above all accountability, and that sex in marriage is boring and stale with the same old woman... but wait! he's enjoying her breasts!!!
- This proverbs addresses the powerful force of eros to lead toward or away from a lifelong commitment. Eros can give us the to desire to create bonds that last but that same eros can draw us away from our commitment. The proverb gives no 'quick fix' to martial boredom, or to sexual options outside the marriage. Instead it encourages fidelity and discipline in the face of desire, to rejoice in each other by encouraging, praising, complimenting, supporting, admiring, pleasing, pleasuring etc etc each other. The 'no' that is given to inappropriate desire is answered with the 'yes' of enjoying eros within marriage. The best kept secret is how the sexual experience is often enhanced by marriage as it affords mutual vulnerability and a giving up of power that facilitates space in which erotic pleasure can abound.
-I love this quote from Malcolm Muggeridge about meeting his wife at a train station:
"There is always a dread on such occasions that somehow the rendezvous will not be kept. So one studies the gathering faces with mounting anxiety; every sort of face showing up except the particular one in question, until at last, there it is, unmistakable, unique, infinitely dear... What is love but a face, instantly recognizable in a sea of faces? A spotlight rather than a panning shot? This in contradistinction to power, which is a matter of number, or crowd scenes. I heard of an ancient inscription in North Africa which reads: 'I the caption of a legion of Rome, have learnt and pondered this truth, that there are in life but two things, love and power, and no man can have both'. Some twenty centuries later, I append my own amen"
C.S. Lewis from Mere Christianity:
Being in love is a good thing, but it is not the best thing. There are many things below it, but there are also many things above it. You cannot make it the basis of a whole life. It is a noble feeling, but it is still a feeling. Now no feeling can be relied on to last in its full intensity, or even to last at all. Knowledge can last, principles can last, habits can last; but feelings come and go. And in fact, whatever people say, the state called “being in love” usually does not last. If the old fairy-tale ending “They lived happily ever after” is taken to mean “They felt for the next fifty years exactly as they felt the day before they were married,” then it says what probably was never was or ever could be true, and would be highly undesirable if it were. Who could bear to live in that excitement for even five years? What would become of your work, your appetite, your sleep, your friendships? But, of course, ceasing to be “in love” need not mean ceasing to love. Love in this second sense — love as distinct from “being in love” is not merely a feeling. It is a deep unity, maintained by the will and deliberately strengthened by habit; reinforced by (in Christian marriages) the grace which both parents ask, and receive, from God. They can have this love for each other even at those moments when they do not like each other; as you love yourself even when you do not like yourself. They can retain this love even when each would easily, if they allowed themselves, be “in love” with someone else. “Being in love” first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. It is on this love that the engine of marriage is run: being in love was the explosion that started it.
-A little except from a novel 'straight man' that was just so good:
"By what magic does she softly say my name and in so doing restore me to myself? More important, why am I so often ungrateful for this gift? Is it because her magic also dispels magic? Is it because her voice renders lunatic the fantasies that have been visiting me of late? "Lilly..." I say, allowing my voice to trail off and wondering if, when I say her name, it has for my wife any of these same magical properties."
- The faithful marriage relationship between husband and wife of course corresponds to God and us. Deut 7:7-8: "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other people, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you with with a mighty hand and redeemed you. "
Sum ups by the sages:
-Take what is not yours; lose all that is yours
-Guard the heart to live well; live well to guard the heart
-Good practice shapes good character; one becomes good by doing good
-my personal fav:
Human love is itself an expression of wisdom, a practice that dispels the deceptions of folly, even the self-deceptions, and in doing so reflects the love that calls us back to our true selves.
i just wrote a HUGE response that took about 30 minutes and when i copy and pasted only the following stuck:
ReplyDelete1. i think that taken out of context, this metaphor "evilizes" (this english major is making up words, people!) female sexuality and over-simplifies the complexities of sex workers (my bible's commentary says that this particular adulteress is a "prostitute," which is why i make the latter point about sex workers). however, i obviously think that we need not read into it this way. the metaphor of the adulteress instead speaks to me as a warning saying "be careful of those who are all talk & charm but lack substance and cannot encourage you in your way of life and will instead encourage sin." this is good for me to hear. i am easily duped by charm. i do not think that we should cut these people out of our lives and relationships, but instead, prize wisdom over them, and prayerfully (with discretion) consider how or why we are attracted to this (shallow and unintentionally deceitful) charm and how it might lead us away from our lord who is wisdom.
i had so much else to say - particularly about marriage and love - and i really wish all my answers had been copied but unfortunately they weren't and i can't retrieve them. major bummer and sorry. feeling really frustrated with myself / my copy and paste skills right now. i don't have time to re-write my thoughts but maybe i will later this week.
i will say that i LOVE this quote: "Human love is itself an expression of wisdom, a practice that dispels the deceptions of folly, even the self-deceptions, and in doing so reflects the love that calls us back to our true selves."
So, just going off of Liz's first question..."what do you think of this immoral woman?"
ReplyDeleteMy initial reaction is that this is one slippery, dangerous woman...The first few verses make me think of a woman who is ridiculously intentional with her sexuality/everything (in a bad way) and someone who knows the temptation that she can cause in a man and who uses that to get whatever it is that she wants or need. You know, your typical manipulative movie-star sexy wench.
But, then, when I get to verse 6, I get kind of surprised..it doesn't fit with what my initial reaction is. I was feeling like this woman was someone who really knew what she was doing and thinking about everything and manipulating things the way she wants. But then, "She gives no thought to the way of life; her paths are crooked, but she knows it not." I was going along imagining her to be one way, but am suddenly struck by what she DOESN'T know...it is an interesting perspective for me. I often forget that sometimes people just don't know what it is that they're doing. Sometimes they just aren't aware of how their actions and words affect those around them. That idea strikes me as sad...perhaps no one has ever brought it up..there's been no close friend, no accountability...and I guess it leads me to think about the depravity of all relationships and how they need genuine true love and accountability. And, I guess, how the lack thereof can often lead someone really really far off the path.
So, gut reaction made me super judgemental...verse six jolted me to think about the back story that can lead people to where they are now.
Further to that..with Liz's last part of this question, "Does the scathing description change the way we treat those who commit adultery?" I would say yes. Knowing someone who has committed adultery (in the most literal sense possible) and speaking with that person about it + speaking to someone else who was the person the married person left for + verse 6 = we can't cast judgement on those people. To me, this is a reminder to think about the plank in my eye before pointing out the saw dust in someone else's eye. I'm not saying I'm not faithful to Jovan!!! I just mean that the decisions people make are often the end point to a series of interactions/bad experiences/BROKENNESS. This is in no way me saying that adultery is okay. Its not. But I think in situations like this we are called to LOVE; we're called to be the listener; we're called to ask questions and encourage thought; we're called to show truth and honesty; we're not called to cast judgement.
My comments are off in a totally different than Liz talked about (SEX)..but heck, this is where I was led. What about the rest of ya?
When I read Chapter 5 my mind was more struck by the logic in this advice. The threats seem to be very real consequences for living an empty life.
ReplyDeleteIt also made me think of a conversation I had with a long time happily married couple. They talked about initially falling in love. She was attracted to his determination, the way he could work and get things accomplished, it was fascinating and hope filled. He was attracted to her spontaneity, her wildness-he was engaged by her spirit for life. They married and as their lives went on, her spontaneity began to seem like recklessness, his work ethic seemed addictive.
But the duty of marriage they said, is to realize that we are constantly changing(growing) and it is imperative that we would fall in love over and over again, as the other changes. You cannot pine for the 20 year old you fell in love with, you must be grateful for the ways in which she has bettered. You must praise your husband for his diligence, and not burden yourself with self-pity.
This are some words of wisdom I was reminded of as I read this chapter.
4. The threat of God is often overlooked in my mind, I get caught up in the fact that God loves us and that he laid down his life for me. Though as Proverbs continually seems to be reminding me, God is strong, he is powerful, and I should fear him.
ReplyDeleteThis verse reminds me of the difference between ways of life. One can believe in God, but not follow his commandments. However this leads the sorrow at the end of death as described in verses 11-14.
But to believe in God is to fully submit to his ways of life. The consequences which are spoken off are not just for sexual sin but for every sin. God is there, examining what we do. We must be actively searching his will.
Also I'm slightly confused by the spring part verses 15-17. If someone could explain it that would be great. I feel I'm getting trapped by the idea that God should overflow from our lives.